<div>A writer and an entrepreneur, Chandra Bhan Prasad, is a known Dalit face who does not minces words when it comes to the atrocities heaped on the underprivileged class. He is also one of the founders of the Dalit Indian Chamber of Commerce and Industry. With Dalits increasingly becoming targets across the country, Prasad sat with Shemin Joy of <em>Deccan Herald</em> to analyse the happenings. <br /><br />Are the Dalits scared now or are they finding their feat and saying enough is enough?<br />During my childhood, if I recall, Dalits were rarely physically attacked. They were just insulted. Abuse was enough to control an entire Dalit hamlet. Elderly (Dalit) villagers would go to the landlords and their sons and apologise, saying their son will not repeat the mistakes that they said the youth had committed. They always used to be apologetic. That was 40 years ago. <br /><br />The new generation Dalits, who uses smart phones, do not suffer atrocities and insults silently. They fight back instantly by arguing, confronting and looking straight into the eyes of those who target them. That is what is causing panic among the upper castes, OBCs as well because they do not have any memory about Dalits standing up to them. They don’t have the experience of Dalits shouting back at them. So this boils their blood. <br />There is international parallel to it. Slavery was officially abolished by Abraham Lincoln on January 1, 1863. If you follow American history, after the Emancipation Declaration, the term that entered the American vocabulary was lynching. Lynching of blacks followed after blacks were freed and slavery was ended. Before that, they were somebody's property. So only the owner would hit the slave. Owner would not hit the slave so hard because he was his property and has to take care of him, spent on medicines and all. He also has to make him work. <br /><br />Post economic reforms, a sizeable section, say 10-15 per cent Hindus, had been undergoing a process of radicalisation. After 2014 Lok Sabha elections, some thought that it is a verdict for change, a verdict for Narendra Modi, it is a verdict for development, making India prosperous, making India surpass the US in terms of GDP and strength. But 10-15 per cent radicalised Hindus thought that the verdict is to bring past and caste back. This is the same way in which a section of white supremacists in the US sincerely believed that slavery can be brought back. Groups like Ku Klux Kan sprang up. In India, a significant section, 10-15 per cent caste Hindus, sincerely believe that Modi government can help them bring back caste and past. They think Dalits are going out of their hands.<br /><br /> So their anger has been accumulating. Now they want to teach Dalits a lesson. They cannot catch urban Dalits. They cannot catch politicised Dalits in villages. So the idea is to attack the Dalit underclass and attack at all-India level. This cow protection movement is an all India phenomenon that could never happen unless there is an all India organisation backing them, mentoring them. And it is no suspense. It is Sangh Parivar, which is behind the cow protectors. Now they are saying there are two types of cow protectors – original and duplicate. How can there be duplicate cow protectors? Sangh Parivar says there are criminals who are sheltering behind cow protectors and doing all these crime. So the duplicate can be dealt with by law enforcers. They can withdraw silently because they do not have ideological commitments to cow. What about original cow protectors? They have commitment to cows, they have commitment to religion. They are nostalgic about caste and past. It is a two-way fight. Earlier Dalits tolerated. Today Dalits are confronting. You see the violence more. We could not think of a Rohith Vemula 40 years ago. A Dalit boy could have committed suicide and people would have just said suicide, suicide. That's all. But Dalits are now asking questions.<br /><br />Do you think the incidents like Una in Gujarat are an attempt to assert on Dalits by cutting off their economic independence? Is it an attempt at the grassroot to check the growth of assertiveness among Dalits?<br />It is like you had child labourers. It is like you have a factory where 500 children are working. All of a sudden the doors and windows are opened and one by one start running way. The conservative caste Hindu, the Sangh Parivar variety which is essentially Modi's key constituency, has become Dalit phobic. They feel Dalits will challenge them one day and they need to control before that. Somehow control them. That is the idea. Use state power, use religious power, use muscle power, use even money power so that they don’t get out of control. <br /><br />You are a Dalit entrepreneur. You know what it to be economically important? How important is to become economically important?<br />It is very extremely important. Then only your dependence on caste system goes. As long as you are dependent, you cannot assert. Only when you are independent, you can target caste system. Now Dalits are into food business, Dalits are into manufacturing, service sector. Post globalisation, there is a market confronting society now.<br />Howsoever, big landlord you may be, howsoever physically big you are, howsoever sharp your moustache could be, if you enter a market to buy a mobile phone or an ice cream , you need money. Unless you have money, the market does not recognise you. All your social status has no meaning then. If he has money, an ordinary man can go and buy mobile phone or ice cream. It doesn’t matter his size or colour. That is the market all about. This has traumatised caste Hindu society that has been going on radicalisation. I call them caste supremacists.<br /><br />You have plans to open an e-food supply chain and you say you would sell beef through it. What was the reason behind it?<br />North India does not have a beef culture. Lets keep that aside. There are various factors. I want to pose a moral question to the society. So far, Dalits have not entered food business in a big way. They are into many businesses but food business is a new area. Food adulteration is a big issue. It is so difficult to find spices, milk and ghee that are not adulterated. The question I am asking is – Dalits are not into food business, they are socially impure, but who is causing impurity in food? Aren’t those the ones considered socially pure? India's food business, people agree, is highly adulterated. There is no need to do a huge survey to find out who does food business in India. They are of course the upper caste. They say they are people who are born pure. But they are selling impure food. So we are taking the lead, telling people to enter food business and sell only pure products. This in a way I am trying to look straight into the eyes of the society. The way the Dalits youth are doing now. I am inspired by the Dalit youths, who are looking straight into the eyes of the society.<br /><br />Do you think the upper cast people are deciding what you should eat, what you should do?<br />I have been asked several times by fellow Dalits how come we could not rebel for thousands of years. What would have been the cause? Well, I said I am not that big mind to tell what would have been the causes. But my own childhood experiences would tell that control over Dalits’ tummy, that is taste, was the key to Dalits’ subjugation for ages and ages. Maharashtra government was telling the Bombay High Court that they may extend the beef ban to goat meat and chicken also, for a few months of the year. Here in Noida, we keep hearing the demand to ban meat business during festivals. Dalits have never said ban vegetables during festivals. Dalits have never said you should eat this vegetable or that vegetable. Since wages were given in kind before, Dalits could not eat what they wanted to eat. Dalits ate what the upper castes gave. Now Dalits are getting paid in cash because they are migrating to cities, they are working in factories, they are entering service sector. So they have cash in their hand. They are eating chicken, those who want to eat beef they are eating beef. The society, the caste Hindu stream, they challenge this. Dalits are saying that they will eat whatever they want. You can’t control my tummy. You can’t control my taste. This also frustrates a section of caste Hindu population that is so nostalgic about past and caste. <br /><br />BJP and the rest of the Sangh Parivar talk about integrating the Hindu-fold. Do you think Dalits enjoy a place of importance in BJP's scheme of things?<br />Sangh Parivar is fearful of Dalits. It is fearful of Dalits and they want to integrate Dalits with their agenda – how nice you people are, you know, that meat eating is not good for the society, you are so neat and clean, you know Ramayana was written by so and so. So, before Dalits joined hands with other social forces, they somehow want Dalits to join them under their conditions. The 2014 verdict was for development. The Sangh Parivar and their associates, including BJP, seriously think that it was a mandate endorsing their ideology. So there is a mismatch. And that’s where India is in self conflict. Modi has no strong opposition. If at all he has any serious opposition, it is from Sangh Parivar. The Sangh Parivar thinks that it was a mandate for Hindu cultural nationalism. Modi thinks, and rightly, that it was a mandate for development. That is why in the past two years, these are things unfolding in different ways. I don’t believe in theories of conspiracies and all those things, I think Modi now seriously feels threatened by his own people. Because he does not want to go down in the history, he knows that in democracies, nobody will be in power forever. So his past also will be examined by some people. So he does not want to go down in the history as a man who said something and did something else. So it was two years wrong and he is now facing the heat.<br /><br />What kind of impact the incidents like Una will have on the Dalit support for BJP? Will such incidents change fortunes of BJP in Gujarat and other states like UP and Punjab?<br />I think UP has gone out of BJP’s hands. You know, the message I get, the feedback I have from Uttar Pradesh (is that) the Dalits are saying the purpose of voting in the coming assembly elections is not to bring any party into power but to defeat BJP. So vote for those candidates who have the potential to defeat BJP candidates. <br />Leather skinning, skinning of dead cattle has been the traditional job for Dalits for ages. Now Dalits are withdrawing from it. The Una flogging has shocked the entire Dalit community.<br /><br />PM Modi has finally made a remark on cow vigilantism. Was Modi late in reassuring Dalits who were targeted? Does Modi’s remarks on cow vigilantism and Dalits (target me, not Dalits) betray BJP’s nervousness? <br />Of course he was late but nevertheless we welcome that.<br /><br />Do you think that his speech was a breakaway from the Sangh Parivar brand of politics?<br />I think so. Not only Dalits’ future is at stake, but his own future is at stake now. Also given the larger Hindu mass, there is a sizeable section of Hindus who do not endorse this Hindutva kind of things. He is fearful that even the Hindus have abandoned him, the liberal kind of Hindus who voted for development. <br /><br />Do you think that BJP can shrug off their anti-Dalit stand? What should they do?<br />They should read history books. And they should read about parallels to the Indian society. They should read about what is happening in South Africa. They should read about what happened in the US. After the World War II, the US became a super power, an unmatched super power. But their histories were red with bloodshed. It is the White America that has to fight. Now America is just fumbled about what to do. Now they are super power, they have military power, they are economic super power. The racial tensions are so sharp, people are fighting on the streets. Finally, the white America said to hell with white supremacy. That’s what Sangh Parivar and BJP should learn that past can never be brought back. The social institutions that declined can never be brought back. Poverty can come back, violence can come back, climate changes everything forever, but social institutions that declined can never reappear. This basic grammar of society is what the Sangh is unwilling to learn, it seems. <br /></div>
<div>A writer and an entrepreneur, Chandra Bhan Prasad, is a known Dalit face who does not minces words when it comes to the atrocities heaped on the underprivileged class. He is also one of the founders of the Dalit Indian Chamber of Commerce and Industry. With Dalits increasingly becoming targets across the country, Prasad sat with Shemin Joy of <em>Deccan Herald</em> to analyse the happenings. <br /><br />Are the Dalits scared now or are they finding their feat and saying enough is enough?<br />During my childhood, if I recall, Dalits were rarely physically attacked. They were just insulted. Abuse was enough to control an entire Dalit hamlet. Elderly (Dalit) villagers would go to the landlords and their sons and apologise, saying their son will not repeat the mistakes that they said the youth had committed. They always used to be apologetic. That was 40 years ago. <br /><br />The new generation Dalits, who uses smart phones, do not suffer atrocities and insults silently. They fight back instantly by arguing, confronting and looking straight into the eyes of those who target them. That is what is causing panic among the upper castes, OBCs as well because they do not have any memory about Dalits standing up to them. They don’t have the experience of Dalits shouting back at them. So this boils their blood. <br />There is international parallel to it. Slavery was officially abolished by Abraham Lincoln on January 1, 1863. If you follow American history, after the Emancipation Declaration, the term that entered the American vocabulary was lynching. Lynching of blacks followed after blacks were freed and slavery was ended. Before that, they were somebody's property. So only the owner would hit the slave. Owner would not hit the slave so hard because he was his property and has to take care of him, spent on medicines and all. He also has to make him work. <br /><br />Post economic reforms, a sizeable section, say 10-15 per cent Hindus, had been undergoing a process of radicalisation. After 2014 Lok Sabha elections, some thought that it is a verdict for change, a verdict for Narendra Modi, it is a verdict for development, making India prosperous, making India surpass the US in terms of GDP and strength. But 10-15 per cent radicalised Hindus thought that the verdict is to bring past and caste back. This is the same way in which a section of white supremacists in the US sincerely believed that slavery can be brought back. Groups like Ku Klux Kan sprang up. In India, a significant section, 10-15 per cent caste Hindus, sincerely believe that Modi government can help them bring back caste and past. They think Dalits are going out of their hands.<br /><br /> So their anger has been accumulating. Now they want to teach Dalits a lesson. They cannot catch urban Dalits. They cannot catch politicised Dalits in villages. So the idea is to attack the Dalit underclass and attack at all-India level. This cow protection movement is an all India phenomenon that could never happen unless there is an all India organisation backing them, mentoring them. And it is no suspense. It is Sangh Parivar, which is behind the cow protectors. Now they are saying there are two types of cow protectors – original and duplicate. How can there be duplicate cow protectors? Sangh Parivar says there are criminals who are sheltering behind cow protectors and doing all these crime. So the duplicate can be dealt with by law enforcers. They can withdraw silently because they do not have ideological commitments to cow. What about original cow protectors? They have commitment to cows, they have commitment to religion. They are nostalgic about caste and past. It is a two-way fight. Earlier Dalits tolerated. Today Dalits are confronting. You see the violence more. We could not think of a Rohith Vemula 40 years ago. A Dalit boy could have committed suicide and people would have just said suicide, suicide. That's all. But Dalits are now asking questions.<br /><br />Do you think the incidents like Una in Gujarat are an attempt to assert on Dalits by cutting off their economic independence? Is it an attempt at the grassroot to check the growth of assertiveness among Dalits?<br />It is like you had child labourers. It is like you have a factory where 500 children are working. All of a sudden the doors and windows are opened and one by one start running way. The conservative caste Hindu, the Sangh Parivar variety which is essentially Modi's key constituency, has become Dalit phobic. They feel Dalits will challenge them one day and they need to control before that. Somehow control them. That is the idea. Use state power, use religious power, use muscle power, use even money power so that they don’t get out of control. <br /><br />You are a Dalit entrepreneur. You know what it to be economically important? How important is to become economically important?<br />It is very extremely important. Then only your dependence on caste system goes. As long as you are dependent, you cannot assert. Only when you are independent, you can target caste system. Now Dalits are into food business, Dalits are into manufacturing, service sector. Post globalisation, there is a market confronting society now.<br />Howsoever, big landlord you may be, howsoever physically big you are, howsoever sharp your moustache could be, if you enter a market to buy a mobile phone or an ice cream , you need money. Unless you have money, the market does not recognise you. All your social status has no meaning then. If he has money, an ordinary man can go and buy mobile phone or ice cream. It doesn’t matter his size or colour. That is the market all about. This has traumatised caste Hindu society that has been going on radicalisation. I call them caste supremacists.<br /><br />You have plans to open an e-food supply chain and you say you would sell beef through it. What was the reason behind it?<br />North India does not have a beef culture. Lets keep that aside. There are various factors. I want to pose a moral question to the society. So far, Dalits have not entered food business in a big way. They are into many businesses but food business is a new area. Food adulteration is a big issue. It is so difficult to find spices, milk and ghee that are not adulterated. The question I am asking is – Dalits are not into food business, they are socially impure, but who is causing impurity in food? Aren’t those the ones considered socially pure? India's food business, people agree, is highly adulterated. There is no need to do a huge survey to find out who does food business in India. They are of course the upper caste. They say they are people who are born pure. But they are selling impure food. So we are taking the lead, telling people to enter food business and sell only pure products. This in a way I am trying to look straight into the eyes of the society. The way the Dalits youth are doing now. I am inspired by the Dalit youths, who are looking straight into the eyes of the society.<br /><br />Do you think the upper cast people are deciding what you should eat, what you should do?<br />I have been asked several times by fellow Dalits how come we could not rebel for thousands of years. What would have been the cause? Well, I said I am not that big mind to tell what would have been the causes. But my own childhood experiences would tell that control over Dalits’ tummy, that is taste, was the key to Dalits’ subjugation for ages and ages. Maharashtra government was telling the Bombay High Court that they may extend the beef ban to goat meat and chicken also, for a few months of the year. Here in Noida, we keep hearing the demand to ban meat business during festivals. Dalits have never said ban vegetables during festivals. Dalits have never said you should eat this vegetable or that vegetable. Since wages were given in kind before, Dalits could not eat what they wanted to eat. Dalits ate what the upper castes gave. Now Dalits are getting paid in cash because they are migrating to cities, they are working in factories, they are entering service sector. So they have cash in their hand. They are eating chicken, those who want to eat beef they are eating beef. The society, the caste Hindu stream, they challenge this. Dalits are saying that they will eat whatever they want. You can’t control my tummy. You can’t control my taste. This also frustrates a section of caste Hindu population that is so nostalgic about past and caste. <br /><br />BJP and the rest of the Sangh Parivar talk about integrating the Hindu-fold. Do you think Dalits enjoy a place of importance in BJP's scheme of things?<br />Sangh Parivar is fearful of Dalits. It is fearful of Dalits and they want to integrate Dalits with their agenda – how nice you people are, you know, that meat eating is not good for the society, you are so neat and clean, you know Ramayana was written by so and so. So, before Dalits joined hands with other social forces, they somehow want Dalits to join them under their conditions. The 2014 verdict was for development. The Sangh Parivar and their associates, including BJP, seriously think that it was a mandate endorsing their ideology. So there is a mismatch. And that’s where India is in self conflict. Modi has no strong opposition. If at all he has any serious opposition, it is from Sangh Parivar. The Sangh Parivar thinks that it was a mandate for Hindu cultural nationalism. Modi thinks, and rightly, that it was a mandate for development. That is why in the past two years, these are things unfolding in different ways. I don’t believe in theories of conspiracies and all those things, I think Modi now seriously feels threatened by his own people. Because he does not want to go down in the history, he knows that in democracies, nobody will be in power forever. So his past also will be examined by some people. So he does not want to go down in the history as a man who said something and did something else. So it was two years wrong and he is now facing the heat.<br /><br />What kind of impact the incidents like Una will have on the Dalit support for BJP? Will such incidents change fortunes of BJP in Gujarat and other states like UP and Punjab?<br />I think UP has gone out of BJP’s hands. You know, the message I get, the feedback I have from Uttar Pradesh (is that) the Dalits are saying the purpose of voting in the coming assembly elections is not to bring any party into power but to defeat BJP. So vote for those candidates who have the potential to defeat BJP candidates. <br />Leather skinning, skinning of dead cattle has been the traditional job for Dalits for ages. Now Dalits are withdrawing from it. The Una flogging has shocked the entire Dalit community.<br /><br />PM Modi has finally made a remark on cow vigilantism. Was Modi late in reassuring Dalits who were targeted? Does Modi’s remarks on cow vigilantism and Dalits (target me, not Dalits) betray BJP’s nervousness? <br />Of course he was late but nevertheless we welcome that.<br /><br />Do you think that his speech was a breakaway from the Sangh Parivar brand of politics?<br />I think so. Not only Dalits’ future is at stake, but his own future is at stake now. Also given the larger Hindu mass, there is a sizeable section of Hindus who do not endorse this Hindutva kind of things. He is fearful that even the Hindus have abandoned him, the liberal kind of Hindus who voted for development. <br /><br />Do you think that BJP can shrug off their anti-Dalit stand? What should they do?<br />They should read history books. And they should read about parallels to the Indian society. They should read about what is happening in South Africa. They should read about what happened in the US. After the World War II, the US became a super power, an unmatched super power. But their histories were red with bloodshed. It is the White America that has to fight. Now America is just fumbled about what to do. Now they are super power, they have military power, they are economic super power. The racial tensions are so sharp, people are fighting on the streets. Finally, the white America said to hell with white supremacy. That’s what Sangh Parivar and BJP should learn that past can never be brought back. The social institutions that declined can never be brought back. Poverty can come back, violence can come back, climate changes everything forever, but social institutions that declined can never reappear. This basic grammar of society is what the Sangh is unwilling to learn, it seems. <br /></div>
