The Tuesday Interview | ‘Sibal echoes RSS when he says Gandhis should give up leadership’

Tagore, a close confidante of Rahul Gandhi, spoke to DH on Congress, rebellion within and recent elections

Manickam Tagore has not looked back in politics since 2009 after Rahul Gandhi handpicked him to contest the 2009 Lok Sabha elections. Then 34, Tagore defeated fire-brand leader Vaiko. Thirteen years later, Tagore is again MP from Tamil Nadu's Virudhu Nagar and has grown politically. He is AICC in charge of Telangana and a close confidante of Rahul Gandhi. Tagore spoke to DH's Shemin Joy on Congress, rebellion within and recent elections.

What has Congress learnt from the latest elections?

Congress remains the major Opposition party in four of the five states that went to the polls. In Uttarakhand, we have our vote share and seats increased but we could not defeat the BJP. The party is finding out what are the reasons for our defeat constituency-wise. In Goa, the division of votes was the main reason. In 2017, our MLAs crossed over and joined the BJP. A new and better team had emerged but we lost. What Congress learns from these elections is that ground-level organisation and new leadership in constituencies is a must. Our narrative is pro-poor and development-oriented. We are not for a divisive, communal narrative. There should be coordination at all levels and modern technique needs to be adopted. In the Congress Working Committee, Rahul Gandhi clearly said that we need to fight the elections with a new model and not the 1990 model.

Also read: All parties, including Congress, create division among people: Ghulam Nabi Azad

What is this modern model?

Each election has become booth-centric. Earlier, it was all about creating an atmosphere. The BJP-RSS are concentrating on booth management. They concentrate on their votes. For example, in a booth of 1,200 votes they will concentrate on say, only their 500 votes. They won't concentrate on the remaining votes. They bring a communal narrative for these voters. They ensure that their people vote without fail. We only used to talk about macro issues. We don't concentrate on ensuring that the rest 700 votes. Congress needs to have a better booth structure. For each booth, we need to prepare a plan.

Apart from booth management, was infighting the one reason for your rout in Punjab and Uttarakhand despite initially having an upper hand?

Congress is a democratic party. We can have differences within. The main issue is where to express these differences. Unfortunately, some of our leaders go to the media rather than raising it in a party forum. We should speak in the party forum, criticise inside but we do it in the media, in full public glare. This is a challenge we face. In every state, we have one or two such people. The leadership had tried to convince them that this is not the right way and it is damaging the party. Particularly in Punjab, Congress leaders talking out of turn in the midst of elections had created confusion among workers and voters. Congress will now try to stop these. We should take action against those who go against party interests. This is my view. When the leadership is seized of the issue, a leader going to the media and criticising the party amounts to indiscipline.

What is your view about the G-23?

I don't know whether all those in the media created G-23 are with that grouping. Some have gone to BJP, some have changed stance. There are some senior leaders who have a set of views. After the Lok Sabha election defeat, there was some communication gap due to Covid-19 pandemic. Some leaders got together at bungalows over dinner, they expressed their own opinion. We all respect the opinions of senior leaders. But to defeat a machine called RSS-BJP, we need a cohesive model. All those who are ready to be part of that cohesive model will be welcome. If they have any grievances, they should take up with the Congress president. The Congress president and the leadership are open to conversations.

Also read: By asking the Gandhis to step aside, did Kapil Sibal cross the red line?

One of their criticisms is about Rahul Gandhi. They allege that Rahul acts like a president when he is not. What is your take?

This is very unfortunate. Rahul Gandhi has been elected by 8,000-odd leaders in 2017. He was an elected president and he had the mandate till 2022 but he took moral responsibility for the 2019 Lok Sabha defeat and resigned from the post. Then CWC and state units urged Sonia Gandhi to take over as president till other arrangements are made. In between we were in Covid-19 pandemic, which was not in our hands. The main thing is that Rahul Gandhi is the elected leader of the Congress. He commands respect in the party. He leads us from the front in Parliament and outside. Whenever he speaks, 10 ministers jump in to counter him. One tweet of Rahul Gandhi means three ministers will reply. Why is that? Because Rahul Gandhi is the leader of the party.

Some question Priyanka Gandhi Vadra's effectiveness in Uttar Pradesh. Isn’t that a problem?

In UP, the Congress had six seats when there was a four-cornered contest. Priyanka Gandhi has given the responsibility to build a better organisation in the state. She tried to bring a new narrative when the BJP was building a communal narrative. She spoke at a large number of rallies. She held protests on people's issues. At that time, where were these leaders? Were they part of these campaigns and protests? It is unfortunate that leaders sitting in bungalows in Delhi criticise people working on the ground. Congress workers trust Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi. They are the unifying forces. For the past 30 years, they have not sought any ministerial post. They come as a voice of the poor and the voiceless, they don't speak for the big industrialists.

Banking on Navjot Singh Sidhu was a mistake. Do you agree?

The decision making in Congress is a little complex. It is not a one man decision. It is a consultation model. At the time Sidhu was appointed as Punjab Congress president, the majority of people supported Sidhu. People thought that Sidhu was a potential leader who would be helpful for the party. The decision was collective and approved by the Congress president.

Sidhu made a lot of comments on Channi. Do you think those had an impact on voting?

Some senior leaders could not understand what to tell the media. Whatever is to be said inside the party, they tell the media. There are platforms in the party where they can air their views or grievances. Sidhu's comments did cause some embarrassment to the party. We don't control our state presidents like the RSS do to BJP leaders. Our leaders have freedom. We only advise why these kinds of statements outside can be avoided.

Also read: Congress must jettison its ‘first family’ sooner rather than later

In an interview, Kapil Sibal said Congress should be Sab ki Congress and not Ghar ki Congress. Hesaid the Gandhis should leave the leadership. How do you respond?

He is a senior advocate and he can argue for losing cases also. This is a losing case he is arguing. Congress is ‘Sab Ki Congress’. Congress is in every house. Congress has 12 crore voters and they don't know Sibal. But these 12 crore voters know the Congress leadership. The voters and party workers know the sacrifice of the Congress leadership. Sonia or Rahul have not become Law Minister. They didn't become HRD or Science and Technology Minister. They didn't take any position but actually gave others a position. The remarks made by Sibal don't suit his seniority and he should not speak such things. He said the Gandhis should leave the leadership. Gandhis have not asked for presidentship. Congress leaders and workers asked Sonia to take over presidentship in 1998. In 1999, Sonia said she didn't want to continue. I was one of the 10 NSU(I) leaders who sat on a dharna for seven days in front of her house urging her. Congress is not a party of lawyers but a party of workers. Let us understand their feelings. Sibal should remember that whenever he says Gandhis should not be in leadership, he is echoing the RSS. For the past 70 years, the RSS' main attack is on Nehru-Gandhi because Nehru banned RSS and showed the world its true colours. Congress workers believe that Sonia and Rahul are their leaders.

There has been criticism from some quarters over G-23 leader Ghulam Nabi Azad accepting Padma Bhushan. What is your take?

I don't have an opinion on that. Azad is a senior leader. He was in-charge when I was in NSU(I). He is a Congressman. We all hope that he guides us with his experience in the party.

There is a perception that senior leaders do not support Rahul Gandhi's campaign plans and themes. Is it true?

It is true. He is the only leader who takes the RSS directly. Several Congress leaders feel the jitters and so they do not mention the RSS whose ideology is hatred. Now the Prime Minister is asking people to watch a film The Kashmir Files. They want to instil hate. This hate politics needs to be defeated. For that you have to tell who is spreading hate. A few of our leaders don't feel that taking the name of the RSS is necessary. But many have started doing so after Rahul did it. On issues like Rafale, some of our leaders were soft. We have to expose the crony capitalism of Narendra Modi government and communal politics of the RSS. We have to explain to the people in a language which they understand.

Youth leaders who were considered part of future leaders had left Congress for BJP. Isn't that a concern?

Yes, some leaders who were sons of big leaders, who lived in Luytens' Delhi have left the Congress. They studied in elite schools and colleges. Their comfort zone has been Delhi. For them, fighting on the ground and sacrificing for the party is difficult. They feel that this fight will take time and they don't have the stamina to fight this battle. They can only come to Parliament and give bytes to TV and go back home. When that opportunity was closing and they were not able to win in their seats, they fumble. Or they have been denied a position they have asked for. So they left for other parties. There are thousands of Congress workers who are from the common man's family. Take the case of this Lok Sabha. We have Jothimani, Hibi Eden, Deepak Baij and others.

Also read: After Assembly polls debacle, Congress in free fall

Many Opposition parties now see Congress as a weakened party. AAP is on a surge while Trinamool Congress has been positioning itself against Congress. What is your message to the Opposition parties?

Trinamool is a Bengal syndrome and it will remain a Bengal party. Other than Bengal, they can contest in one or two more small states and nothing more than that. AAP's win in Punjab is not surprising. In the 2014 Lok Sabha polls, all its four MPs came from Punjab. So it is not right to say that they suddenly emerged. AAP had space in Punjab because people were angry with Akalis and we were facing anti-incumbency due to Amarinder Singh. The change in leadership took place and helped us to become the main Opposition party. Or else we would have been like Delhi Congress. If we hadn't effected leadership change, we would have been in a stage where the Delhi Congress is now. AAP would of course try to expand. In ten years of its existence it won two states, and it would take years for it to get a foothold. India has seen coalition politics. Congress also understands the importance of coalition. We have long term relationship with certain parties like DMK, RJD, JMM, Muslim League. The reality is that Congress needs to put its act together in states where it has to defeat the BJP. In those states, we need to get our organisation in shape. If the BJP can get 500 votes polled in an organised way, the Congress also needs to get its 500-600 votes polled in a booth.

From a position of a ruling party, the Congress has been reduced to around 50 seats in the last two Lok Sabha elections. How do you place Congress in 2024?

A Congress-led government is possible. The Modi government will face 10 years of anti-incumbency. The BJP will pay a heavy price for attempting to divide the country. People of India are united to vote them out. But Congress also understands its challenges. There are some states where the Congress is in third or fourth position while in some others, we are first or second. Congress leaders in states will have to understand our situation. We have to focus on booth-level management and messaging. We have to defeat the BJP in each booth.

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